Shan Foster | From Survival Mode to SEC Legend

Shan Foster is the all-time leading scorer in Vanderbilt history. His number is retired. He was named SEC Player of the Year, drafted by the Dallas Mavericks, and played professional basketball across four continents. But the story that made all of that possible starts long before any of that — in New Orleans, in an abusive household, learning how to survive by wearing different masks every single day.
In this episode, Shan breaks down the intangibles that built him — not the accolades, but the actual wiring underneath them. He talks about how an abusive stepfather, a friendship with a kid named Neil Jolly, seven workouts a day in high school, and a father who gave him a calendar before anyone was recruiting him, became the foundation for one of the most decorated careers in SEC history.
He also gets real about what nobody talks about — the identity crisis that hits when the game is over. Who are you when you're not "the guy" anymore? Shan goes deep on that, and on how a conversation with a mentor challenged him to do work that outlives him — leading him to co-found a charter school, fight violence against women, and become a keynote speaker on stages he never imagined.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

I'm sitting here with my man Shane Foster. We go way back. You know, uh unfortunately, unfortunately, you know, we didn't we haven't got a chance to spend much time as I've liked after getting to know you a little bit over a good friend, Max Goldberg's house, and you know, and we've always kind of seen other in all these different spaces, but never really had a chance to really, outside of that, those couple interactions, to really sit down, man. And so I'm really excited to jump into your story, talk about you and these things, these intangibles that's made you who you are. But before we get there, I like to start this thing off. This man right here, standing six foot six, um, Vanderbilt All-Star stand out. Um, you've led Van into SEC uh playoffs. You were all SEC of the year. I mean, big big accomplishment. You were a leader, not just a leader, but the guy. That guy. And these are all the things I've been researching about you and hearing hearing from others talking about you. It wasn't like, oh yeah, he was a good leader. No, he was that guy. And so, um, which I think is uh ultimate compliment. So um now, speaker Arthur, leadership, mentoring, um, everything you can to continue to build the ones that that's behind you. Um, very active with your university, Vandy, um, on the fundraiser side of things. And uh, but always when I turn on the TV, you've got something going on with Vandy, man. So, Shane, really glad to have you on the Intentional Podcast, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Well, thanks for having me, guys. It's a it's a blessing to be to be asked and uh looking forward to um jumping into this with you, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Yeah, absolutely. Now, you know, hearing a little bit about your your your upbringing, your your your home life, you know, I I can tell your family was all about excellence growing up. Um, you know, so take me through your your early on upbringing and how did that really shape you to become the man that you are today?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah, man. Um, well, I think first and foremost, growing up with with my grandparents, um, the first six years of my life um was very, very foundational for me. Um, my grandfather is 95 years old, man. Yeah. And and he worked, bro. Like he built homes, he built schools, he built churches, he built the church that I was baptized in, he built the school high school that I went to, right? Built uh the home that I grew up in. Um and so there was a strong sense of work ethic. He was also a military veteran, right? And so the things that we did around the house were very intentional. The things that I saw in him was very, very intentional as it relates to the expectations for being a young man. Right. How do you treat people? How do you treat adults? How do you treat women? Right. And so I was able to not not just hear him talking about those things, but to see him living that out. Living that out. Um but he also showed me great balance because he was a deacon at the church, right? And so I saw him praying in front of the church. I saw him leading our family in prayer at home, right? Like that that allowed me to identify manhood and masculinity with not just work and being tough, but also being somebody that is not afraid to get on my knees and pray and have a relationship with God and and to live that outwardly, right? Right. Um, my grandmother, who was a missionary at our church, she was my first Sunday school teacher, right? Um, and had me in church every single day of the week, bro. Every day of the week, man. Um, you wasn't just on a Wednesday and Sunday, you were Monday. So her her my grandmother's sister married um the pastor of our home church. So that was our family church. Yeah. So like, and it wasn't a mega church like we have today that has you know somebody who's doing everything, like the family did everything. Right, right. So when I say we were there every day, bro, yeah, we were there literally open the church, close the church, right? Like it's just so that's what it was. Um, and so that gave me a sense of community, right? That old adage that it takes a village to raise a child, yeah, right. I had this huge village around me that felt very, very secure. It was very consistent. And then at six years old, uh my mom finished school and had gotten married, came to get me. And so now we're going to live in New Orleans with her and her husband. And now for six years, I get to see the complete opposite. This was a man that was abusive not only to my mother, but to me and was trying his best to drive a wedge between me and my natural father, right? Who I still have a great relationship with today. Um, so all of that, those things that I learned in those first six years of my life felt like they were being tested or trying to be rewritten in the next six years of my life. And I found myself really struggling with my identity, struggling with understanding my place in the world, struggling with understanding what's right and what's wrong. Um, when you have those stark differences of what it looks like to be a man, what it looks like to be a father, what it looks like to be a husband, what it looks like to be in community. This is somebody who who literally never went to church.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

So I go from church every day to now I'm going to church, but I'm only going with my mom.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Right? Yeah. But this is the example of man at home. Right. So I'm I'm struggling with all of this stuff in the middle of now going through middle middle school and trying to figure out like, all right, and I'm in New Orleans during the time when it was the murder capital of the world. Right. So my child, when I talk about my childhood, and I talk about it in my book, man, like it was like I was wearing a different mask depending on what situation and circumstance I was in. Right. I had to master how to be church boy at church, how to be community at home, how to be a good son that got good grades and said and did all the right stuff and helped out around the house, babysitting, getting put, you know, various responsibility on me, how to handle adversity, dealing with an abusive stepfather who's not supposed to be touching me in the first place, but he's beating the crap out of me for simple stuff. Yeah. Who's I'm watching, yelling and screaming and belittling my mother. And I'm like, this is not how I grew up. I don't think this is okay, but apparently this is this is life now. And then I'm going to school with people that are carrying guns and weapons and doing drugs, and but then we all hoop together.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Right? And then you see people going to jail, and then then you get to high school, and it's like, dude going to jail for life. He put somebody in the trunk and set the trunk on fire. It's like, what? This is my life. This is my life, right? And I'm getting the crap beat up out of me at home as if I'm them. But I'm not doing any of that.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Like I was always on the A-B honor roll. I was the president of the youth department at my church. I sung in the choir, but I also had to figure out how to fit in. So a little bit of them was also in me.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Because you you gotta survive. As a kid, like you don't want to be the bud of every joke. You ain't, you if you didn't, you don't want to get bullied, so you gotta fit in a little bit. Right. So I was always living this duality, yeah, and struggling at night with the identity of I gotta be all of this, but who who am I? And basketball was the place that I got to just be.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

And when did when did basketball really when did you look at basketball and say, this is the place that I can create my safe haven?

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That happened for me in the in the sixth grade. Yeah. In the sixth grade, I was always the tallest dude in the school, so they stick me under the basket. And I really wasn't good. I was just bigger than everybody else. Um, but it was it gave me a sense of identity that was solely based on what I produced on the court. Right? Like it was just was it a challenge in the in itself? It really was. Yeah. Right. Um, but but I always had, I was fortunate enough to have coaches that fully believed in meritocracy, right? If you worked hard and you produced, you got more playing time, and and you were the guy if you produced. Right. It wasn't coach's son, it wasn't, you know, boosters and somebody paid in money. Yeah, right. Like it wasn't none of that. It was literally however good you are, that's that's the the what you're gonna want to, what you're gonna get. Um, and so because I was trying to escape home anyway, that kept the ball in my hand. So every chance I got, I had a ball in my hand, dribbling up and down the street if I didn't have a goal to shoot on. If I did have a goal, I was out there working on different things, and we'd we'd watch NBA games and I see them do stuff, and I go outside and I work on it until I felt like I was doing it just like them. Yeah. And then I'd figure out all right, I know how to do the move, but how do I do the move against a defense? Right. And when is the right time to do it versus you're not so the really fall in love with the process of growth and development in basketball, and I could lose myself in it and it'd be something positive, right? Right? Like I like a lot of the other guys, they would lose their self in drugs, they'd lose their self in in gambling and girls and all this stuff. And I I could lose myself in the game of basketball and be celebrated for it, right? And and and the way in which, and I'm sure you can relate, the way that people treat you when you show that you're a good athlete, it changes your entire world. Right. Right? Like you you go from just a normal kid like everybody else to, oh, that kid has promise. Oh, oh, we gotta spend a little more time with him. Oh, anything that that's representing the school, oh, we want him to go. Right. Right? Right. And so that became my experience in the sixth grade. And it was something that it was a feeling that I was like, I gotta keep this going.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Like I don't, I don't want to go back to not knowing my identity and not knowing where I fit in and having to please people who I don't even like, who are not headed in the right direction, but I just I gotta fit in with them. Basketball gave me a place, I don't have to fit in with each other anymore. Outlet. Now I can just be me.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Right. Yeah. Um, and so sixth grade was when when it happened for me.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

At what point from an academic standpoint, you know, because you end up in Vanity, that, you know, basketball and and the academics piece is gonna be that thing that gets me to the next level. Um, because again, Van Dy is a school that you you have to be doing your work early. Yeah, for sure. You can't wait till your senior year to try to get that, get that together.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

So man, when I was when I was a freshman in high school, there's this kid named Neil Jolly. Um Neil was Indian and his father owned a Baskin Robbins. Neil was really smart. Neil was one of those kids that he studied, he worked hard at it, but it just seemed like he just knew stuff that the rest of us just didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Right? Neil sucked at basketball, but he but he loved the game and he wanted to play it, he wanted to make the team, right? And because he was considered a nerd, none of the other guys would really rock with him. Right. But he wanted the hoop and he was in gym class with me. And so I said, yo, why don't you let's make a deal. You help me on the academics, I'll help you in basketball. I can't promise you're gonna start, but we can get you to make a team, right? Right? Right. So I'd go to his house and and and study with him, and I got a chance to see how they lived. They all lived in a very different neighborhood, a gated community, nice big house. And so I got a chance to see and talk to them about their values and what was important to them. And as we talked about the academic side of things, and it wasn't, it went from me just trying to figure it out to understanding that these teachers are looking for a very specific thing. So if you can understand specifically what the teacher is looking for and study appropriately, now you pass the test. It's not about mastering the information, it's about mastering what the teacher is looking for. Right, right. Right now he just opened my eyes to a whole different world that I didn't know exist before. Right. So now what he did for me was allow the academic part to become easier so that I could focus my my actual energy on basketball.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Right. Right. And and I saw that shift in high school when I had other other guys that were really, really good and talented in basketball, but they had to spend so much time on the academic part of it that they couldn't, and it's only 24 hours in a day. Right. You just don't have the time to devote all of time to both.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

So while they were at home trying to study, I could be in the gym working out. Yeah, I could put in the extra time, I can get those extra jumpers up, right? And and so that freed me up to be better, better in basketball. And I ended up doing well enough to get into a Vanderbilt, and those things that I learned from Neil helped me even at Vanderbilt. I give him credit for that so much, man. He was a godsend to my life because before that, doing schoolwork wasn't cool, it wasn't fun. Those those guys got cracked on all the time. But I was able to be in honors classes and still hoop and get my identity over here to where I learned how to be, as the Bible says, all things, all people. Right? And that even helps me today in my career, where I'm not I'm I'm not afraid to go and sit in a room where I'm the only one that looks like me to be there. I'm not, I'm not afraid to go into businesses and and and and conferences where I haven't mastered the information, but I can still feel myself be myself in this environment. Those things started as early as high school with Neil.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Now take me through the time of getting to Vandy, and now you're looked at as a dude that's going to come in and contribute early. How did you handle the pressure making that transition knowing that man, I'm leaving a lot behind to pursue this opportunity. And there's a lot of pressure, but also now there's the pressure to come in and really perform in the SEC. SEC different ballgame.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Man, another friend of mine, Micah Haggis, is still my best friend to this to this day. I'm the godfather to his kids. He's the godfather of mine. Um in high school, we played one-on-one every day. Every day. We pushed each other to be the best every single day. In those times, we didn't know it, but we were building a level of resilience, um, a level of emotional intelligence, a level of um perseverance that would then be able to translate into handling pressure at a collegiate level. Um the responsibility of leadership, understanding how to know what the coach is looking for, to be you, but also be that. Right? To not make excuses um related to, you know, the coach don't like me, and you know, um, you know, this person don't like me. Like not allowing each other in high school to have those excuses, right? Like you're the best two players on the team, you're gonna see double teams. We can't lose just because you see in a double team. Like you, we we gotta figure this thing out. So we talked about basketball all day, every day, right? So that when we got in game situations, we could react because we had already done the mental work of preparing for all these different situations and scenarios. When I get to college, people are bigger, stronger, and faster, but it's still basketball, right? Right. And so because I had that consistently in high school and in Micah, when I got to college, a guy named Alex Gordon was our point guard. He became my mica in college. So me and him played one-on-one every day. We pushed each other the same way. We had identical classes, he was my roommate. We we stuck together like glue and we pushed each other. And and and what we were building in that moment was the ability in games to look at each other and say, hey man, we do this to each other every day. They can't hang with you, right? You rise above this. Come on. I know you I know you ain't gonna let you let me do that. Nah, right? You create a level of of brotherhood that allows you to excel even past your own mental limitations. I didn't grow up like a LeBron James who was the chosen one since I was eight years old, right? I didn't put that work in, right? Like I when I'm not saying he didn't put the work in, but you just a different pattern. Yeah, it's just different, right? I didn't I didn't know that I would become the all-time leading scorer in Vanderbilt history. I didn't know that I would be an SEC player of the year. I didn't know I would be an NBA draft pick. I those dreams didn't become real for me until they became real.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Right? Right. I was just trying to get away from home. I was just trying to give my brothers and sisters something better to look up to and show them what was possible in the world. Right. Right. Like I was just gonna push and work as hard as I could to see how far this could go. And it ended up resulting in a beautiful career. But it was in all of those little moments that gave me those intangibles that I would then be using at the next level. Um, and and none more important than the ability to understand pushing past discomfort is what opens up possibilities. Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Now, you know, it's it's interesting when we when when we have these conversations with younger athletes, you're asking these questions like, do you know what your intangibles are? And a lot say, they give you all kinds of random words. Yeah, you know, the way you're speaking of this, it seems like you you had a sense of awareness that a lot of kids don't have. And so is this hindsight looking back or in these moments that you were that you're speaking of, that you were already being aware of these aspects and these pieces. And uh it's interesting for me because I got a theory about that.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah, yeah. So my my dad, man, my my biological father, who I've always had a phenomenal relationship with, um, he played basketball at the University of Southern Mississippi and would have been a great pro. Um he blew out both his knees, right? But he was always in my ear from really day one in middle school that basketball is what you do, it's not who you are. Basketball is not what you do, it's who you are, right? Letting me know that like there's certain things that are gonna happen in your life that you're gonna be able to use in basketball. But you gotta understand it as such so that you can tap into it. Otherwise, you'll you'll have it, but you won't know how to ignite it. You won't know how to use it to bring about a particular outcome. And and so he was just always talking to me about you know how you treat your teachers, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Right?

SPEAKER_01 20:33

You in school, how you how you treat your janitor, right? That translates into how you treat referees on the floor.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Right? Right. So so now you gotta understand, like, referees are people too. So if you're gonna be a butthole to them, then when you need a call and it's 50-50, you're not gonna be able to get it.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Right?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

And and you wanna be able to stay on the floor so that you can produce more. Right. You in foul trouble, you can't be on the floor, you can't produce. Right, right? So it doesn't cost you anything, even when a referee makes a bad call to tap him on the behind and be like, hey man, make sure you give me that back. Right, yeah, right? Yeah, and and and and those little things are building a rapport, building relationship. Yeah, right. So such that now, as I'm doing color commentary for the games, the referees come over, hey Shay, what's up, man? It's good to see you still doing this, right? We we didn't sit down and do this, right? Right? I wasn't having dinner at their home. They only experienced me during the game, right? But they felt like they know me. You I can't even count the number of calls that I probably got solely because a relationship. Being able to build that intangible, yeah, right? Yeah, that it's a small part of the game, but it could be the difference between winning and losing.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Right? Little little things like understanding, understanding how to get the best out of your teammates, right? Taking the time to get to know people. Yeah. What what what is it that makes you tick? What is it that that sets you off? What is it that that shuts you down? Yes. Right? Like so now if I understand those things, then in a game situation, I know how to get you hyped before the game. I know when when you're struggling, how to build you back up. Right. Right. I know how to make sure that you're in the gym with me. Right. Not not trying to hold you accountable and not willing to bring you. No, hey, I'm going to hey, come with me. Come on. Right? Come on. Where did that come from? That came from class. Yo, Mike is your boy. You care about him, right? He wants to go to college and hoop too. So all this stuff you're getting from Neil, all this stuff you're getting from your parents, let's make sure both of y'all are growing.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Right? So when we go into class, hey, bro, you in class today? Hey, you finish your work. Hey, come on, man. We got to get this together, right? It translates.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

That's why he was the guy. That's why he was, when they said leadership, that's why he you're the guy. You know, I think, you know, one of my theory around these guys and girls who have this early awareness about things have to grow up really early in life. Um, and that's just my my running theory because again, we don't know yet. You know, I have young, I have kids who didn't have to grow up the way I grew up. And so, you know, I had to grow up early, you know, cooking, cleaning, helping my mom with the kids, babysitting, doing these things, these chores, working in fields, and things like that. It forced you to develop this sense of awareness around these different intangibles early in life. So as you're going through life, you're able to, like you said, ignite them in the right places. Yeah. And then having sports, having, you know, football and powerlifting all these different things, it just continue to build that foundation and building those relationships the right way. And so that's just my running theory on it. Um, but again, it's still, you know, I get to see it through my kids' eyes now and see how they build their intangibles and their resilience and things like that through a lifestyle that didn't look like mine.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

You know, yeah, you know, and they and we can't say, as you know, we always say back in my day, but also this generation in their time right now, a lot of pressure, a lot of special lot of social pressure that we didn't have to deal with, which gave us ability to find our escape. Yeah, you know, they can't escape now. No, that's real.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

That's real. For us, for us growing up, we were just trying to get it by any means necessary.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

This generation is trying to keep it. How do I not drop this ball? We are trying to go get the ball. Right. Right. This generation's got to think about what I've just inherited, I didn't work for. But I gotta have something to give once dad is gone. Right. How do I not drop this ball? That that's immense pressure. We had we had pressure because it was like this is all we got. If this don't work out, then what I'm gonna do, what I'm gonna do. But but but there was also a sense of of security, and I'm already experiencing the worst that it can get.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

But when you for this generation, when you grow up with parents that have means, when you grow up living in a safe neighborhood and you don't have the experience of what the bottom feels like, right, there's a fault. It's not your fault, but it's your responsibility. Yeah, right? Yeah, because now I don't know, I don't know what the worst could look like. So how do how do I manage in such a way that I'm able to build having a foundation already? We are trying to build the foundation, and so it was easy for us to put our all into building the foundation because there was nothing there otherwise. Right. The pressure this generation has, man, with with social media, having access to see in real time what other people are doing is a is a pressure that we don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yeah, back to go weeks, go days, maybe get one phone call. Yeah. Because we didn't have cell phones and have that. And so uh, no, it's a it's a different world we live in. And which is why it's I think it's you know important to, you know, to kind of going back to your career as you know, becoming all SEC player, you know, the cost that that it takes to get to that stage and that level, because they're not just handing those out. You know, what was that? What was that cost? Talking about that work that took to get there, the focus, the ability to bring others along, because again, you're on a team, you gotta have others around you to even get in that position to win that. So take me through that.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yeah, man, you know, again, thinking about intangibles, right? Like when I was in high school, my dad challenged me to keep a calendar. And he said, every single thing you want to accomplish in your day needs to go on this calendar. He said, if it's not on the calendar, it's probably not gonna happen. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So every every workout you want to get in, if you want to play the video game, put it on calendar. And so I started doing that in high school, where my workout schedule, I'd get up, get a workout in before school, I'd go through school, I shoot free throws at my lunch period, I'd get a workout in during my PE class, I'd have basketball practice, I'd leave there, go to Xavier University, do conditioning and workouts with them, right? Seven workouts in a day, bro. Right? But that's what that was my schedule. That was my calendar. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

This is why this is important because people see the the war, the accolades, but the lead up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

And from we're talking about high school. We talk about high school.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

The lead up for that started in high school. Not not knowing any of this was possible. This is before I even had a letter from a school. Right, right. Right. And so being able to do that at that level when I got to college, where time management is of the essence, right? Right. But I had an up on all of my classmates because I've been doing this since high school.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

So I'm literally just igniting something that I've already done and done well. So now I got I got classes, but I actually have more time. High school actually monopolized a lot of my day. You get to college, I got one, two classes in a day, I got the rest of the day. What am I gonna fill that with? Right. Right? Right. A lot of guys get in trouble because they don't know how to properly manage their time. And they allow what other people put on their calendar to dictate their day, and they never actually are able to take control of their own life. Right. But because my dad gave me this gym in high school, my day looked like what I wanted it to look like. Right. So I was able to still get up in the morning before class, go get me a workout, get in the ice tub. So I'm good. I'm fresh. I'm not sitting in class about to die. Like I'm I'm good, right? Lunchtime, making sure I get in a jump, get some free throws up, get get some ball held in, get extra workout in, right? Then I'm doing everything with the team. Then at the end of the day, before I go to sleep, I gotta get shots up again. Right. But this is not overwhelming to me. I did this. I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_03 29:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Right? You've been putting the rimps in a long time. I've been putting them this in a long time on Sundays. It's an off day. Let's get a thousand shots up.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Right? Yeah, it's yeah, we still off. Yeah, we're gonna hit the ice bath, we're gonna be good. Like, but this, this, so you talk about the work that leads up into being all SEC for four years, being SEC player of the year. By the time I got to my senior year, the game slowed down so drastically that that I you had you had to work real hard for me not to get 20. You you had you had to work extremely, you had to be really smart for me not to get 20. Because the game has slowed down to the level that I understood my body, I understood my teammates, I understood our game plan, I valued watching film.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

So that I knew the offense and defensive tendencies of my opponents. And we had Kevin Stalins, which is one of the best basketball minds that there was in college basketball. So he taught me the game in such a way that I know how to, I know how to beat every defense, I know how to stop every offense. So now as a senior, and I only got one class because I took care of the academics because of Neil Jolly in high school, right? Right. So now I only got one class as a senior. I'm in the gym all day. I'm watching film all day. So when I get on the court, now I don't have to, I don't have to hope shots are going in. If I'm open, it's a bucket.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

So now I only have to work on getting to my spots and making sure I'm free when I get there. So now I don't, and I'm smart enough to understand because of the academics, I'm smart enough to understand the play that we're running and how to make sure that I'm prepared for every shot opportunity that I get. See, the thing that a lot of kids don't understand is it's not about taking shots. It's about making sure that you're prepared before the shot comes so that when the shot comes, you can put your all into it. Right. You can't put your all into it if when you get the shot, you don't know if you open or not.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

It's a surprise to you. That split second in college, that open shot is no longer open, bro. That open lane is no longer open. It closes fast. It closes just that fast, right? So when you when you're able to master those parts of the game, the game becomes easy. Yeah, I see things before they ever occur, right? And I can be I can be on a court talking to my defender. Hey, I'm about to do this. You got a choice, bro. You better choose right. You chose wrong. Bucket. Yeah, right. Like I'm having fun.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Because the game slowed down to that to that degree.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Right. And and then going back to what you talked about about leadership, making sure that my teammates were empowered, knowing them well enough to know how to be an extra coach on the floor for them, how to motivate them, how to be a team, but also not be so big headed about my own experience. Right, right. Like, yeah, I'm killing. Yeah, I'm averaging 20, but that doesn't make me any better than you. I need you the same way you need me, bro.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

Yeah.

unknown 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

We're all in this together.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

How do you, how do you instill that now? How do you communicate that to a young athlete about how to bring how to bring your teammate along while you're having this kind of success? Because the the social says is about me, me, me. Yeah. But in reality, it takes all of us. And so how do you, you know, what's that language that a young athlete needs to hear as it relates to you could still do you, but that humbleness and the the not getting complacent and being in a place where you still also have to support for the rest of your teammates and bringing them along to be a part of that success?

SPEAKER_01 33:41

I I feel like my answer would be different depending on the audience. Like if like if I'm talking to a parent, like that. So let's talk.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

This is what this is what we're talking to parents, we're talking to a player, you got a different audience.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

When you're talking to a parent about this specific topic, it's really about ensuring that the child understands the difference between the opportunity to go pro, the opportunity to win, and when those two things collide. Right? You have to understand that when you evaluate your child's actual talent, are they good enough to actually do it by themselves? Right? You get a guy like John Jenkins that's from Nashville that played at Station Camp and played with us at Van Dy and won the SEC championship. That guy averaged 40 in high school for his career. That's wow. He averaged 40. So guess what? There are a lot of games John won by himself.

unknown 34:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Just a fact. Right. Right? So it's not, we're not saying that it's not possible for the child to do it by themselves. At the high school level, it's absolutely possible. You're out there with folks that you know are used to playing in the YMCA league. Right. Like it's possible for you to go do it by yourself. Right. If you're John Jenkins. Yeah. If you're that kind of a talent. Right. So as a parent, you got to be honest with yourself and with your child. Not just looking at it, oh, that's my baby. No, are they actually capable of winning games by themselves?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

And if they're not, you have to humble them, make sure they understand. You look worse when your team doesn't win.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Right? Right. So if I'm talking to the parent, it's that kind of conversation. If I'm talking to the kid, you got to understand you have a small window of opportunity. You got four years in high school, you got four years in college. What you do in those eight years determine what your possibilities are after that. And coaches, now, because of NIL, it's a whole different game. Right. Right. And things are getting ready to change such that your value actually produces your income. Right. Not this free-for-all that you see happening where you can be averaging five points a game and go and ask for a couple hundred thousand. Like those days are going to be over very soon.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

I mean, it's changing fast. Yeah. And so what's becoming more prevalent and more important right now is these coaches are trying to identify these extra intangibles because the money is getting so expensive to have a player. So you can't back in those days, you can, hey, we're going to get another kid in here. It's hard to get rid of those kids and bring other kids in here when you're paying them that kind of money. And so now coaches have to go to a different model. What are these intangible? They're coachable. What's the character? What's their leadership style? What's their thinking style? Because I now need to know all these other aspects outside of their talent that's going to help build this team that I know I can depend on and count on. Because at the end of the day, if I don't win, I don't have a job.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Bro, right now, Vanderbilt men's and women's basketball, we're the only school that has men's and women's basketball both undefeated right now at this time.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

But when you look at those two teams, Michaela, Michaela Blake's is a superstar. She's superstar. She is.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

Yeah, yeah. Another character. And that's the 40 points. She's consistently.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Consistent. It's a whole different world. Consistently. Yes. So what does Shea Ralph have to do? What does Mark Bynes have to do? We got to make sure that we have intangibles around them. Uh-huh. Right? Because we got to defend. I don't care how many points you can score. If we as a team can't defend, we're probably not going to win a lot of games. Right. Right. So we got to defend. Right. We got to like each other. Right. Are you a likable person? Right.

unknown 37:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

True, true family environment. Yes. Yeah. This matters, right? Are you are you somebody I got to kick out of practice? Yeah. Do you come with an entourage that I got to be concerned about what all your friends think about like all those kinds of things? And now I'm paying you. Right. You have distractions. So now all these distractions gotta go away. Can't have them. Right? Right. All of these things that we're talking about, are you gonna be a problem? Like you come to Vanderbilt, you gotta go to class, bro. You you you you gotta, Diego, you gotta go to class. Right. Right? Is that gonna be a problem for you?

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Right.

unknown 38:17

Right?

SPEAKER_01 38:18

All of those things. All of these little things that enhance what you do in your sport. But it's not solely your sport. You have to be a complete person. And I tell I tell kids all this time all the time, particularly in this NIL space, if your marketability is solely in the number of points you can score, you have limited marketability. You just do. Very limited. Because I can't on the days when you don't shoot it well, I just don't get a return today. Because it c it comes. Right? Those days come. It comes. You're going to get some scout reports. Somebody somewhere is gonna shut you down. Right. Then what? You have no value now? What happens? You get hurt. You're out four or five games, two, three months. Now you have no value?

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

So you've limited your marketability solely by putting all your eggs in and how many points I'm gonna score.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

When if you're a great leader, if you're a community person, if you're a family person, right? You're you're a likable person.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Now, regardless of what you do on this floor, you have value. Right. And I talked to my son about this in the football world is you know, especially he's playing receiver, you think about how many balls I'm gonna catch, how many touchdowns I'm gonna score. And uh this whole year, all we talked about is how to be a leader, and then how do I become a dominant blocker on the perimeter?

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Because you do those things well, the balls are gonna come. You're gonna catch balls, that stuff's gonna come. Yeah. But if you do those things well, and when the when a coach turns on the film and they say that you're willing to do the dirty work, they see you constantly upbeat, cheering on your teammates, bringing them along, those are those extra value pieces that we're talking about. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

And and you stay on the field. Right. Right. If you can't do these, I'm not throwing it, I'm not throwing the ball every play.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Right. I can't. Right. Especially with the most dependable position on the field. Exactly. Old line gotta do their job, quarterback gotta do their job, running back gotta do their job to picking up splits and stunts and like all before you catch the ball. Before you can get an opportunity to catch the ball. Right, yeah. So yeah. So it though those are very important, very important. So all right, so what I'd like to do is uh we're gonna we're gonna uh back down just a quick second here and do a rapid fire two-minute drill. Okay um, you know, halftime football two-minute drill. Here we go. All right. Um all right, quick quick answers here. Um, toughest SEC environment you played in? Florida. Oof, that's a good one. Um, one shot you'll never forget.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Um game-winning shot against Mississippi State, my senior year.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

I I like that because you know I'm a rebel, you know. Um of your best teammates you had at Vandyville?

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Best teammate, Jason Hoarda.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Okay. Um coach who challenged you the most? Kevin Stallins. Kevin Stallins. Uh, one thing fans never understand, never understood about the game.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

In order to be good, you actually have to be very intelligent. At the higher level, you have like it's not just talent. Yeah. You have actually to beat Scout and Reports, you have to be really smart.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Yeah. I love that. Um hardest um hardest mentality. Um well, hardest mentally, a shooter slump or leadership pressure. Shooting slump. For me. For me, shooting slump. And even for you, man, can't you imagine you being in a shooting slump? Bro, I guess it happens.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

It's what it's one of those things, it it happens, like it's it's part of the game. It's it's the law of numbers and and and averages, right? Like you're gonna have moments when you kill it, and you're gonna have moments, and it's nothing that you can do, right? Right? Like, and we go through that, and that's just part that's frustrating. It's like, yo, what am I doing wrong? Right. Sometimes nothing. Nothing, it's just part of it. Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

All right, overseas basketball in one word.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Ah, that's good. Overseas basketball in one word. I'll have you give me a couple.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

Um exposure. Interesting. Yeah, exposure. To culture or to like what they say, exposure.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Okay, like we live life in America one way, and that's that's kind of all you know.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

But there's an entire world out there, man, of people of all different backgrounds, shades, colors, experiences, cultures, traditions. Um, and and when you get exposed to more, it it just it adds to you in ways that just staying in one spot can't.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Yeah. All right, I like that. All right, a couple more here. One habit that saved you. Prayer. Um this is a grand finality, a big one here. Legacy in one word.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

My son.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Love that. Love that. Well, no, that was a great man. Thank you for that. Um, I get to I get to use that in a A very special way. So I appreciate that. All right. So we we to I I I ended on that question because we talked about legacy and and you know, you had an amazing career, you know, but you also sound like you really understood having these conversations, you understood that basketball was not your identity, it was what you did. Yeah, and so now we talk about making that transition out of sports, which transition is not really talked about a lot. You know, we we we know that it's gonna come to an end. Everyone, the fans know it's gonna come to an end. But rarely people understand, even when you've done well in the sport, how challenging that transition could be. You know, what was your transition like? What was that what was that moment when you decide to hang up the cleats? How did you mentally handle that pressure? Because I think it's important for people to know that it is a it is a a different switch you have to flip now.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Um I decided to retire from basketball two years before I actually did. And the reason that I retired was because basketball became way more of a business than my love for the game could sustain. When I talk about this in my book, when you're when you're not one of those top guys, your experience changes just as drastically as it does when you were young and became a good athlete. Yeah, they're almost identical.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Interesting. Because you talked earlier when you were trying to figure out how to fit in, yeah, and then all of a sudden now you're performing, yeah, and your whole experience shifts and change. Yeah. And for the good, yeah, now you're in this transition and your experience changed dramatically again. Yeah. Which way?

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it wasn't, it wasn't a horrible experience, it was just my entire career basketball-wise, was just on this trajectory. Every single year I got better. Yeah. And because I got better, my positionality on teams got better. Right. My accolades improved, right? Like I played for the USA team, right? Like I did some really incredible things. And then you become a pro. And if you're if you don't have that same trajectory and that same path, once you get amongst everybody is amazing, then now the business of basketball just puts you in a completely different space.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

To where it's less about basketball and more about do you fit this business plan? Markability. Do you fit this strategy with the coach? Do you do you gel well with whoever the superstars are, right? Um, what kind of favors do your agent owe people? And who does your agent have on their roster? And it's all way down to politics, right? Like, and and and then when you're playing in Europe, it's are you playing for a team that pays consistently? Are you okay with living in another country for 10 months out of the year? Right. And being estranged from your family. Right. Right? Like, and that family piece was big for me because one thing you know about me and my story, my family's been with me from day one, like my my college career, like my family made most of my games, both on the home and and on the road. And so to go from that to now being in another country where they can only watch on the internet. Yeah. I had a lot of fun. I got exposed to a lot. I have amazing experiences traveling the world, but there was always a gravitational pull back to my family that I couldn't shake. And so I knew early on this is not something that I want to want to do. And I and I liken it to climbing a mountain and getting to the top of the mountain and realizing that what you thought was there was not.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

What emotions surprised you in that time?

SPEAKER_01 48:55

I went back to that place of trying to figure out who I am now. And it was psychic, and it was a scary place because it wasn't by by now, I got accolades. Right? By now I'm really, really confident, like teethering on arrogant. Because you got to be that to perform at that level.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Right. But now the question is, who am I if everybody's not patting me on the back? Who am I if I'm not signing autographs? Who am I if I don't, if I'm not the guy?

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Because by now I've spent the better part of two decades being the guy. Who am I if I'm not the guy? Right. Who who am who am I not even in sport? Who am I in my family if I'm not the guy? Who am I in my friend group if I'm not if I'm not the guy?

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Right?

SPEAKER_03 50:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

How how people treat you when you're the guy changes when you're not the guy. And I've been fortunate to be here in Nashville in a community that has wrapped their arms around me, and many people remember those games, and I'm sticking to my university and and and and and able to give back in a meaningful way. So I still get a lot of that taking pictures and signing autographs, and people respect and value what you brought and what you meant to their children and all of those different things. But I struggled with with that. Who am I if I'm not and and and if I'll be completely transparent, it's part of the reason why I'm in Nashville. When I could have gone and lived anywhere else in the world, yeah. But in Nashville, I'm still kind of sort of the guy.

SPEAKER_03 51:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

That's not the case in New Orleans when I grew up, where I grew up. That's not the case in Chicago. That's not the case in New York. That's not so who am I?

SPEAKER_02 51:14

I struggled with that, right? And I think every athlete struggle with something like that. Yeah. Because you do something for so long, even when you're aware, because you had awareness around understanding people, building relationships, all these different things, understanding that basketball is what I do, not who I am. But there still is that piece in you that when the curtains close, you wonder, who am I? Can I rebound? How do I do it? So my question to you is how did you dig in to overcome most of that identity that was tied into basketball? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

David Williams, the late David Williams, who was my mentor and just a phenomenal father figure in my life, um, when I was thinking about retiring, I reached out to him and we talked for a long time, and he challenged me to really be intentional about what I did afterwards. Like he said, Shane, you you got all the intangibles. You can do anything, and and everybody's gonna want you on their team. But you have a chance to do work that matters, that impacts people, that outlives you. And he said, I want you to spend some time thinking about what that could be, right? Yeah. You know, I think one of the things that unfortunately um a lot of players do, and I'm so excited, man, to see you still engaged at Ole Miss and engaging with not just the the program, but with that community, man, because far too many of us go and spend that time in that university and then we leave, not realizing that there's there's so much value, not only that you can give, but that they can also reciprocate in a way that that impacts your life, impacts your family, impacts your your experience, but also impacts how you feel about you and your own skin every day. Right. Right. Right. There's something about being around people who see the best in you regardless of life circumstances. Yeah. Like you could you can be going through, you know, some really hard times in your life, but if you're around your university, there's gonna be people that are gonna lift you up. Lift in and out. Um and so I was I was fortunate enough to to make that decision and to value that early on and to be in Nashville. Um and so my transition has been a lot easier than a lot of my teammates, a lot of my friends, um, because of that.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Yeah, man. I would say, do you think that that that one conversation um around doing something that is impactful challenged you to dig in, which ultimately led you back to your intangible that you had developed throughout life, throughout sports, that you were able to lean back into those and realize that these intangibles set me up for so much more than just basketball.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Absolutely. Absolutely, man. I mean, in helping to start the charter school, you know, uh that was about me understanding how I grew up in in New Orleans and what we had access to, most importantly, what we didn't. And we were able to go into the Antioch community and put kids on a career path towards college and college completion, who are the first in their families to ever get a chance to go to college. Right. Right. Um, doing the work to end violence against women and girls, man. I I grew up and saw that kind of violence, you know, in my household and in my community. And so being able to encourage men to be a part of that conversation in a way that's that's healthy, to where violence is never an option for them in their relationships, you know, and being able to raise awareness around that and raise money to that ultimately supports people who are coming out of abusive relationships and make sure that, you know, we start to change, you know, what that looks like, not just for the state of Tennessee, but for every state that we have programming in, right? And so I I've been able to utilize, you know, my gifts of public speaking, of leadership, of you know, the little things like being able to be effective in in middle school the same way I am in a boardroom. Right, right, right. Having having the ability to speak to people in power positions or people with with means and resources, people I've I've done work in in government, I've done work in sports, I've done work in in medicine, I've done work in financial services. Like I've not been pigeonholed into any one specific audience because of the intangibles that I've I've been working on since I was a kid. Like being, you know, when when mom put me in church and I was in the youth department, they made me get up and speak in front of church and pray in front of church. Like now I I've been in front, I've I've been a keynote speaker for the World Diversity and Leadership Conference and in front of thousands and even more online. And I'm able to be comfortable in those environments, right? Because I've been doing it my whole life.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Well, you know, I I think that that well, one, I'm getting chills just thinking about it. And and it just means so much for me to hear you talk about your intangible this way because when we were growing up, people would say and still say, I think to this day, you know, oh, this person has these kind of things, oh, they got intangibles. They have intangibles. But in those moments, you don't, you're not really thinking about what are those intangibles. You're not thinking about, oh, I need to start to take a inventory of my intangibles because those are the things that I at some point, you know, I need to be able to come back to because there will be a transition in life that I would need those things. Because right now I'm doing well. Yeah, I'm I'm grinding, I know what I'm doing. But at some point when that transition happened, or something, you know, that that may alter your life happens, those are the things that you can lean on, you know, outside of your support and family and things like that, but things you can lean on and know that I can overcome.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

Well, well, here's the thing not just in things that are revenue generating and business, but those intangibles are critical at home. Right. Right? Like, like if you're you're in you're in partnership with somebody, you're gonna have disagreements. If you don't have the intangibles of knowing how to accurately reflect your own values while also creating space for somebody else's opinion and and their values and and and trying to compromise, right? And you're gonna have kids that you gotta raise and and they're gonna hold you accountable for doing the thing that you say, even though you might have done something different. How do you have that conversation? How do you like all of those intangibles help you in life, right? It's not just your sport. And if you if you get so so lost and so ingrained in your sport that you don't focus on the intangibles, you're losing life, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Yeah, man. You're here preaching, man. You're preaching to me. So, well, man, as we start to wrap up here, I you know, I just you know, I'd like to to ask a question, um, a couple more questions here. One, when you think back to your 17-year-old self, what advice would you in hindsight give that 17-year-old kid that's looking in the mirror that is dreaming of what they want to do and be in life? It's gonna be alright.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

It's gonna be alright. I spent a lot of time afraid, man. The trauma that was associated with an abusive stepfather, the impact that that had on me mentally and spiritually made my childhood be survival. And I was afraid for my brother and sister who I left in that environment to go and pursue a dream. I spent a lot of nights as a college student in tears because I couldn't be there for them. I I I didn't know how to pursue the dream and show up for them at the same time. And because I was in this conflict of pushing to pursue while also holding on to, although I achieved great things, there were still some that I left on the table because I wasn't sure that it would all be okay. The nights I spent worried about my mom, um, my grandparents who I I love and adore dearly, um, but who are also older. And every time I get a spam call that had an area code for where they lived, I'd be afraid to answer the phone. Afraid that something would happen. My siblings still growing up in New Orleans and struggling to find their identity, but still in a world where they gotta survive. And um I would I would tell my 17-year-old self it's it's gonna be all right, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

It's gonna be okay. Now here you and your mom have a company together. Yeah, you know, they thrive, and then they brother and sister had someone to really look up to to see that there is a way out of the survival, yeah, just survival mode. So that's awesome, man. Um, thank you for sharing that. My last question for you. And it has to end on an intangible here. So when you look back over all of those challenges over your life, you know, experience you have and where you are today, you know, what are several intangibles that has solidified, that's been solidified within you, that's made you who you are today.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

First and foremost, I would say extreme faith. Extreme extreme faith. Um faith in God, faith in myself, um, extreme faith. I would say also being a people person. Um sometimes going overboard and being a people pleaser, but the ability to truly value people and enjoy getting to know people um has made networking easy. It's it's allowed me to be comfortable in spaces that I otherwise would have felt like an imposter. Um it gave me the ability to expand even business wise outside of my circle. Right. Um I would also say perseverance, the the ability to experience adversity and it not break me, to come up against roadblocks and it don't stop me. Um the ability to problem solve not just in sport where I gotta figure out how to be the strategy, but also in business, how to position things in the market, how to pitch various things, how to, you know, there's there's just so many things that problem solving really allows you to be strategic as opposed to just reacting um to things. And then lastly, I would say the moral compass is important, right? Like there's just certain things that I'm just not going to compromise. It not only keeps you out of trouble, but it allows you to have a good name that can go before you and be in places where you don't have to be there, but people speak well of you. If if I had a dollar for the number of times somebody has said, Man, we were just talking about you.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

And I never take that for granted. I never take it lightly, man, because people don't have to speak well of you. Yeah, receive it. People don't have to say anything about you. You don't have to be at the top of people's mind at all, right? Right, but but when you are, because you show up on time, you're dependable, you produce, you prepare, you go out of your way for other people, right? They can trust you to not embarrass their brand, right? Right, then you can be top of mind for people in a way that is true and authentic, in a way that allows, like the Bible says, for men to give into your bosom, where the blessings are pressed down, shaken together. When you have a good name, when you're intentional about your your character and how you show up, God can make your name great in spaces where you don't have to be. Right. Man.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

That was good, man. This is this has been a fantastic podcast. Jen, I really appreciate you jumping on Intangible Podcast with me today, man. Your story is one that I think um people are gonna grab some nuggets, be able to implement in their life. I mean, the fact that you've you've had the life that you've had, you've gotten to the mountaintop, and then you've reinvented yourself. Yeah. And we can we can thank a lot of things for that, you know, the upbringing, even though it was hard. We were able to pull something out of and learn something from it. The intangibles that it was created in those different environments to be able to be in a position to still have that that drive to reinvent yourself. And so uh I'm thankful for you, thank you for you as a friend. I really appreciate you coming over. I've learned a lot. I've got nuggets in my head that I gotta write down that you spoke here today, man. So uh this has been fun, man. Really appreciate you. Thank you, man. Appreciate you having me. Yeah, absolutely. That's good, bro.